Permanent Care in Victoria
Victoria is one state which does not allow for the adoption of children (apart from a small number of infants) instead it has opted for a model known as ‘Permanent Care’. Permanent Care is guardianship rights to the child, different to Adoption Orders which allows for care givers to be the childs legal guardian. With permanent care you can change the childs last name and you have the right to decide where you live and which schools the child attends.
While the topic of foster, permanent care and adoption is a tad tricky, the line between sensitivity of the rights of the child and the parents is often blurred.
My biggest concern with Permanent Care is the regular contact with the child and their birth parent – keeping in mind that the child has been removed from their birth parents permanently because of often severe situtions such as abuse, neglect, drug abuse or mental illness.
Subjecting them to regular contact can often undo the good work done to heal a child and the process has to begin over again after each encounter, especially when the removal of the child was not voluntary.
This is not a generalised view, for some children it will be fine for them to regularly see their biological parents without incident.
Personally I feel that an Adoption Order would be more appropriate, given the child will not live with their biological parents again (or at least until the age of 18) and adoption is a formalising of bringing a child into a new permanent family. I believe this in the long run is actually what is better for the child – given the biological parent has been deemed unable to ever care for the child for serious reasons.
The role of the new parent/s is never to condemn the biological parent – but I do feel that it is the area of permanency that the child craves, a sense of belonging.
I also believe that if older children were able to be adopted that more families would take children in. When I talk to adults about my own desires of one day becoming a parent to children other than my own, the main argument I get from others who’ve thought about it is that they are fearful that they would bring a child into their family and themselves and their biological children forming strong attachments to the child and then having the biological parent come and want them back.
I am not convinced that a Permanent Order does anything to ease this real fear which prevents some people taking up the desire to welcome another child into their home.
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I should clarify that ALL other states have the ability for long term care of the child to be granted to other people:
ACT has an Enduring Parental Responsibility order, which lasts until the child is 18 and gives a stated person or person’s parental responsibilities instead of the state.
NSW can get an order for Sole Parental Responsibility, which is in effect the same as a permanent care order.
NT allows for other people to given long term parental responsibility of the child, rather than the state.
QLD allows for long term Guardianship of a child to be given to another person other than the parents, or the state
SA allows for Guardianship until the child turns 18 to be given to one or two other people, other than the minister.
TAS allows for children to be placed into the Guardianship of other people until they turn 18.
WA has Guardianship (special orders) that give the Guardianship of the child to one or two other people until the child turns 18
The big difference is that these orders are usually given to foster parents and they do not seek out different persons for this purpose. I suspect that seeking out different people as is done in VIC allows more people to come forward, and also allows us to ensure the child is placed in the best possible environment. Foster care is often simply the first bed that becomes available and that is not always the best long term home for the child. There is no doubt at all that it is going to be better than where they have come from, sometimes the child needs specific things. And of course not all foster parents actually want to take on Guardianship of the child.
I would just like to clarify a few things about other states. Most states do have the ability for Guardianship to be transferred to other people and for it not to be maintained by the state. ALL states at the minimum have the ability to grant custody to another person while the state maintains Guardianship. The custodial parent is the one who makes 99% of the decisions about a child. They have the legal right to sign all school permission forms and the like, without seeking permission of the Guardian. All states have the ability to make some form of long term care order that effectively means the child will not be returned to the biological parents. Most states have some level of Adoption, even if they are few and far between something Victoria has not done. I totally agree that Adoption does need to be considered and not just left at permanent care. And for correction the child’s surname is not changed in permanent care orders. It requires a court order in and of itself to be done. While on a day to day basis the child may use the permanent care family’s name, legally they cannot use it. I know of a case where due to the severity of the abuse ALL contact and even knowledge of the child’s existence had to be changed. The children freaked when they heard their birth family surname. Despite recommedations of THREE child psychiatrists and numerous psychologists it still took 5 years AFTER the permanent care order to be given consent to legall change the child’s surname on the birth certificate. Mind you the child would have freaked equally if they had seen the birth certificate with the birth parents names on it. If there was ever a case for Adoption that was it and yet it was never done. And by freak, I mean the child needing to be placed in a psychiatric unit as they were so disturbed by the name. For many children the name is no big deal for some it is life threatening. And for those few the birth certificate needs to change, just to keep the kids alive. Even if you strengthened all the laws in the world surrounding permanent care, some children do need the birth certificates changed, given the severity of the situation.
Hi
Kelly, you should be able to get a passport without the approval of the birth parents. You will need a full copy of the court order before you start dealing with the passpor office. I have not yet started the process but I know someone that has and it did take a while. You will also need to allow time when you travel as it may take longer to clear emmigration.
Nick, I suggest you keep in touch with the agency. I was definitely a ‘squeaky wheel’ while going through the process although always polite and respectful as the agencies do have a lot to do.
Hi Nick, it does take a while for them to get back in contact, especially if there is not an information scheduled for a while as everything seems to be done as a group. When we first enquired we had the same issue, but these guys are overloaded with work so they do their best. It’s a shame the government will sink billions into a broadband network but not the extra required for an exceptional child protection system… mad world huh.
Hi Kelly, check some of the messages below as there are a few folks who have been able to get passports for their PC kids. It might offer some place to start looking? I guess you might have already sorted it as I am a bit late to reply :) If you get it organised maybe you could tell us how as we’ll want to do the same.
Hi,
Me and my partner of four years have just started the process of permanent care. We are still waiting for our first information session and it seems to be taking them forever to contact us about it. We first contacted them about a month and a half ago and they haven’t rang us, I have rang them a few times and all I get is we will contact you next week with a appointment time.
I find it very disheartening that they are not more prompt with the process, these things do take time but they should think of the kids waiting for a loving happy home.
I feel as though we may be discriminated against for the fact that we are a gay couple, but just because our sexuality isn’t the same as most house holds doesn’t mean that our love for a chil or children would be any different then what a straight couple could give. I shall keep you informed on our progress.
Sincerely
Nick
hi I am currently a permanant carer and have full custody of my 2 year old nephew and in the future i would love to be able to take him overseas for a holiday..What im wanting to no is do i need permission of his biological parents before i can do this? and if they dont give me permission what i can do? if anyone could help me i would be extremely greatful. thanks
Alison: Foster care is equally as important as any other system which provides a positive environment for a child when they cannot be with their parents or biological family. I hope all goes well with you Alison and you are able to continue having your little girl as part of your family. We’ll be beginning our journey down the PC path at the end of the year.
Jane: Thanks for sharing, this page has been a really popular one for people searching for more information on PC so I am happy to see everyone able to find out more first hand stories from PC parents :) I also hope your journey to have your PC order granted goes quickly and smoothly.
Hi to all
Would just like to say that I am a foster carer and it should not be knocked, as I am now going through a whole lot of red tape because the little girl with which we have had from 3 weeks of age to 18months, is going onto a permanent order and we want her to stay with us. We have to go through accreditation again to become a permanent carer. You would think if a child has been with you for 18months and is loved by all the family it would be straight forward. So I think fc,pc are equally important.
My husband and I are are the perm carer’s of a gorgeous, yet troubled girl who has been in our care for 2 years.
We are currently stil in the process of waiting for a Permanent Care Order to be granted. There have been many delays along the way.
We would highly recommend Permanent Care for the explicit purpose of building a family, and supporting a child who would otherwise ‘float’ around in a foster care system. We would however prefer that it be adoption as per the UK & US, because dealing with the governmental agencies are difficult because they don’t have a framework for permanent care, whereas foster care & adoption are well trodden paths in the ‘system’.
We would also say that the legal system is a tricky thing to navigate, and you should not rely on DHS’ legal persons to present your families point of view. If you are entering into contested situations with more than one party – seek your own legal advice!
The most often occurring contest is the number of accesses to be granted. In our case the birthmother is seeking monthly access. DHS are seeking six accesses per year with the birthmother. In our case DHS is working with what they think they can get, not what is sustainable in the long term for the child – given that other parties are wanting separate access arrangements to our daughter as well.
The best thing about every day, is hearing my daughter say “I Love you Mummy”. No matter how challenging the day is/has been, those three words in her girl voice make me feel like I can take on the world.
My best advice, get educated, and really listen when being educated about some of the difficulties & challenges that you can face as a permanent carer and you will be well on your way to having a realistic view of Permanent Care. And keep in mind – there is a process, but the outcomes for the child/children is what is important.
Cheers,
Jane
Hi Anna, yuk what a tricky situation you are in. I am by no means any expert on PC but I do follow closely as I can the processes and any changes to the system as it has always been my desire to add to our family. You’ll need to get professional advice as I am unaware of any clauses which cover internet or written communication.
It’s equally tough because she has reached the wonderful era that is the teenage years and along with all the biological changes their intellect is often racing to catch up so they don’t have the ability to predict future outcomes as us as adults and parents (often but not always) do, so you saying that her contact with her biological mother is not for her good – won’t be understood, its her ‘right’ to talk to her etc (as I am sure you’ve probably already heard her say! :)
It would also be worth having a chat to the workers at the PC agency (hoping they are approachable and informative) as they might be also able to help you negotiate through this without having to go back to court. But in the end, it’s up to us as parents to do everything we can to protect our children from things we know are going to be harmful to them, even when they don’t understand or resent us for doing so until they reach an age when they are able to make their own decisions and learn from their own mistakes.
Hope it goes well. Rose.
Hi Rose
I have a real problem, 16 years ago when we were given a permanent care order in Victoria …… FACEBOOK DIDN’T EXIST!
My 14 year old daughter is in constant communication (access) with her biological mother on Facebook, although the order said she could see her 3 times a year under my supervision.
Her mother also is on facebook with all her friends and follows everything she says and makes comments. My daughters life is getting totally stuffed up.
Have you any knowledge about the legalities of this? in relation to the Permanent Care Order on access?
John’s comments could have been mine… we also have a darling little girl who came to us through PC. If she was in another state she’d be in the uncertainty of FC. Thanks goodness at least PC is here in Vic… and yes we are her mummy and daddy, and our parents are her nana and grandads… I too wish adoption could be be imposed by judges where there really is no hope of the kids having a good future with their bio parents. From Rose 2 (I’m different to the original Rose!)…
the judge said they will never send an 11 year old back ih they don’t wont to go back it is so great.
thanks rose
Hi Jess, thanks for writing with your opinion. Discussion is a good thing :)
hi i am an 11 year old girl who is in permanent care i think it is unfair i have been through all of it i think we should have the right to say we want to be adopted.
Hi Mary, I’m so sorry to hear about your situation, especially after all you’ve been through. Your case further highlights a lot of people’s real fears which keep them from taking a child into their home for life.
Especially if the biological parent and contest the permanant care order – which seems odd to allow because the children are already in your care, so everything should be sealed and binding by now… (another crack in the wall it seems).
I would urge anyone reading who feels strongly about the current Permanant Care structure to write to your local MP and the Minister for Community Services;
The Hon. Mary Wooldridge, MP
Fax Number: 03 9096 3636
Phone: 03 9096 7500
Email Address: mary.wooldridge@parliament.vic.gov.au
Postal Address:
Level 22
50 Lonsdale Street
Melbourne
Victoria, 3000
In further response to this article. My husband and I have now been placed with 2 lovely boys under the perm care system. We love them to bits and would not be without them now. We have and alwasy will be mummy & daddy to them. However – while the transition and moving in went well – we cannot say the same for red tape that goes with everything. We have had trouble with centrelink, medicare who have trouble reconising permanent care. It is foster care or adoption. It is nethier – it is limbo land and I have refered to previously. 6 weeks down the track now that our boys are settled we are told the mother is going to contest the perm care order – another delay. Boy these people at DHS need to get things sorted for the sake of the kids. It is no wonder that the system has trouble getting people to do permanent care. Still I look at my boys faces each morning and would do it all again. We would be devastated if it went hay wire. We just have to wait now until more red tape is worked through.
Hi Rose
Just a not to say that it is possible to change the name of the child in your family via Perm Care. We changed our son’s name three years ago (he is in the family via PC) as he was starting school and they said it was fine to use our name informally, but all his ‘official’ school reciords had to be in his birth mum’s name. We went to Births Deaths and Marriag with our perm care order and a long letter and eventually were successful in changing his name. He is very happy and proud to have the same name as his older (bio to us) brother.
Rose your info is not quite correct re guardianship. When a PC order is made the PC parents are granted by the making of the order ‘custody and guardianship to the exclusion of all other persons’. This mean were are the legal Guardians and we make all the short and long term decision of our son’s life concerning his welfare. We do not have to seek permission for anything from DHS or birth parents. The only other difficulties we’cve had have been in relation to a Passport, but we got over this too, and got him a passport last year fopr a trip to the UK.
However the difference with an Adoption order is that when a child is adopted a new Birth Certificate is issued, with the adoptive parents listed as legal parents (Incidently our son’s Birth Certificate now has his current legal name as our our name, an on the reverse it states his previous name ie his birth mums surname. All his legal documents like Medicare, Centrelink, school etc, we changed over to his new name).
As Fiona says, ‘access’ (I prefer the term ‘contact’, as access infers some sort of parental right, like when a couple has split up, which is clearly a different situation to ours) occurs now in Adoptions anyway. And we’ve found that one hour four times a year is not an enormous stress, anmd also our relatinship with our son is so solid, that we want this access to occur too, for his benefit, so he is aware of his biological background. It certainly doesn’t make him want to go and live with his ‘tummy mummy’ as we call her.
re adoptions that could be made. I agree that adoption would be better for the kids than PC orders, and there is an inquiry into child Protection system happening at the moment. Its called the Protecting Victorias Vulvnerable Children Inquiry and I’ve made a personal submission outlining how I think PC order should be strenghtend to make us fully ‘legal parents’ or abolished in favour of adoptions. They have a website, and my submission should be up soon hopefully (they had to take out some identifying ifo re the children first). It is possible under current legislation for the courts to make adoption orders without the consent of birth parents (which is ordninarily required). The current Adoption Act allows for this is the child is at risk of neglect or abuse. However I think they are extremely reluctant to do so given the highly sensitive nature of past such uses which resulted in the ‘stolem generation’ of aboriginal childen. Given that aboriginal families are over representd int eh child protection system, this is an extremely delicate area for governemtns to deal with.
However Victoria is ahead of the game in relation to most other states, as we’re the only ones with PC orders. In other states kids would be placed in ‘long term foster care’, where the foster carers do not become Guardians, and all long term welfare issues (schools, medical, trips ect) have to be referred to the State for aproval as the state remainsd the Guardian of the child.
Hope this is of interest!
cheers
Dan
PS. our kids call us Mum and Dad, because we ARE Mum and Dad
Yes – permanent care children definitely use Mum and Dad. I was introduced as Mummy Fiona. I don’t think my children ever used the Fiona part.
Just wondering if pc children call their pc parent mum and dad?
Hi
I have two little girls through permanent care. They were placed as a sibling group with me nearly three years ago. I have not had one day of regret and I know the girls will now have many more opportunities than they would have.
Having gone through this, I would say that a lot of those concerns pre placement came to nothing (for me anyway). Having these children in my life and me in their lives was much more important.
Access is fine if managed properly. Access is also now part of adoptions in Victoria.
Whilst names cannot be changed, children can be registered under a separate name for school. However, there are many families in which different family members have different surnames. No questions are asked of me because of the different surnames.
Currently my husband & I are waiting on a permanent care placement match. It has taken us 2 long years and lots of red tape to get our accreditation. While we are told that there are sibling groups waiting to be placed due to the lack of carers – we are still waiting. I agree with Rose that Aust needs to move towards making adoption more readily available. The kids involved in permanent care orders can almost be considered live a life of limbo. While they become cherished & loved member of the family they cant have your surname. We have been told that a surname change is not allowed. So it is interesting read your statement on this. After doing much research on this issue – The UK & America – allow for children who are not to be returned to the bilogical parent to be adopted. I don’t understand why Australia does not follow this model. Permanent carers are paid an allowance – one that would not be paid if the child was adopted. Does it not make financial sense for the state to allow for adoption??? To me it would be a win – win situation.
Thanks for your reply John. I agree that permanant care is a good second option from adoption – I would like to see open adoption for all children become legislation in Victoria and all states and territories throughout Australia.
Thank you for the clarification about the visiting rights. There is always conflicting information – I just know from the many people I have spoken to about it, it is a real fear that most of us have.
Hi Rose,
We have a permanent care child who is the light in our lives. We love her dearly, so this is a very personal issue for us.
Firstly, I think you’re coming from the wrong angle. Australia (not just Victoria) is very anti-adoption, and there are (literally) thousands of children in the country who should be put up for adoption, but current legislation does not allow for this (like it does in the UK and US). In these 2 countries if parents repeatedly can’t / don’t look after their kids the courts can order the child to be available for adoption. Best result all round… but this does not happen here.
Instead, Victoria has made the step of creating Permanent Orders where a child is not to be returned. our little one would be a forever foster child if she was in another state – and this is wrong. So give credit where it’s due.
As for bio parent contact this is put into the order by the courts and is usually 4 times a year… enough for a child to know who their bios are, but not enough to threaten their bond with their PC parents. This contact is for the benefit of the children. For parents convicted of abuse etc, they will not normally have rights – so it’s often the other parent or bio grandparents or siblings who can have contact.
I hope this clarifies things. We are very grateful for Permanent Care as we would otherwise be forever uncertain of our legal rights with our precious child.